Curse

Jumping Is Uselss · Feb 01, 2010, 04:12 AM // 04:12

I am putting together a new gaming rig very soon, but I need some advice with the parts I've picked out. The build needs to be able to play current games at 1920 x 1080.

My budget for this build is $1.2K max.
I did not pick out a GPU yet because I am waiting for the 5830 to released.

And how well does this Dell screen stack up, gaming wise?
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/p...9&sku=320-7345

Elder III · Feb 01, 2010, 11:55 AM // 11:55

I'm on my way out the door to work, but the build looks good. My only quibble would be with the wireless card - I have purchased 2 of those and not been very pleased with them.... they have poor range, but if you have a good router and aren't too far away it should be fine.

The screen is fine, but nothing special either, you could save yourself a little shopping on newegg methinks.

Jumping Is Uselss · Feb 01, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

I looked around newegg again and I found this. I don't know anything about Hanns G monitors, are their quality any good?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824254040

I'll look again for a wireless card since my modem is in another room it is mandatory. And I don't have a phone line in mine and drilling holes through the walls is out of the question.

Elder III · Feb 02, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

I would buy that monitor at that price, it's a pretty good deal with those specs and Hanns G has a reputation as being pretty decent quality. A 3 yr warranty is pretty nice too.

Lord Sojar · Feb 02, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

HannsG is a very good company. They aren't a Sony or a Samsung, but you also aren't having spontaneous nosebleeds when buying a HannsG. So...

As for the build itself, it looks very good. The only thing I can see as a potential snag is that Corsair RAM. Dump that junk and go purest, aka GSkill. They easily beat Corsair's tripe in every single test and configuration.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231277

On a side note... did you guys happen to see GSkill's new Pi series? Holy jesus...
http://gskill.com/products.php?index=251&c1=&c2=
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231322

The one I linked above isn't even close to their top model...

Painbringer · Feb 02, 2010, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I have the Black series 640 gig drive and to be honest I luv it and it seems fast enough for me. But windows seems to rate it lower then i thought it would. upper 5's. All my other components are in the upper 7 range. Not to deter you but if you are a number freak you may want to get two and raid them. I still like my solo drive

I am just waiting for solid disks to drop in price

Winterclaw · Feb 02, 2010, 11:20 PM // 23:20

One note about the corsair, I just got a 750 and their cords aren't modular. So be aware that you are going to have a number of excess wires in your case. It may not be a problem in your case, but in my case things ended up kinda cramped.

Jumping Is Uselss · Feb 03, 2010, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I've swapped out the memory with the one suggested by Rahja. I don't think i'll require the Pi series for now, even though it is godly.

@Painbringer: I am definitely not a numbers freak. Upper 5's are good enough for me. And I'm on the same boat as you on the SSD. I can wait til the prices drop

@Winterclaw: What is your case? Is it a mid tower?

Winterclaw · Feb 03, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

It's dimensions are 6.5 by 16.5 by 15 so I guess it is a large mini/small mid tower.

Firebrazer · Feb 03, 2010, 01:00 PM // 13:00

You need the HX series for modular, not the TX series. HX costs a little, but it makes cable management easier (at least in my opinion)

Jumping Is Uselss · Feb 03, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

The cables should not be a problem. The dimensions of the Cooler Master case is 19.20" x 8.60" x 19.50".

@Firebrazer: I agree, modular PSU makes cable management easier. I'll look into the HX series.

Lord Sojar · Feb 03, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

On the note of SSDs dropping in price, JMicron and Intel are fully ramping up 25nm NAND production as we speak. Products will be out by Q3 of this year, and not only with current SSDs see a 50% price drop, but you will be able to get offerings double the size for the current prices.

Burst Cancel · Feb 03, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

RAM specs (not to mention brand ...) are essentially irrelevant for a gaming rig. There are some apps where you'll see minor speed improvements from having lower timings or more bandwidth, but the price to performance ratio is poor. Also keep in mind that even budget RAM kits generally have some overclocking headroom.

See: http://www.anandtech.com/memory/show...px?i=3589&p=10 (gaming results page; read the entire article for apps that are relevant to you)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anandtech

Once again, as we moved to real-world applications, those impressive synthetic benchmark improvements did not translate into results that would justify spending three times as much for a memory kit for most people. We had mixed with certain applications like WinRAR producing a 20% improvement from DDR3-1066 C7 to DDR3-1866 C7 while several applications showed minor performance improvements under 2%. If your primary job is to compress and archive files for a living, then the expenditure for fast low latency memory is justifiable. However, the decision to spend additional funds on higher performance memory is quickly up in the air after this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anandtech

Once we overclocked our system, the playing field equalized for the part as latency improvements had just as much impact on performance, if not more so at times, than bandwidth in most of our applications. In fact, in our multitasking test that showed an improvement of 8% at stock speeds, the difference between 1200 C5 to 2000 C8 was only 2%. Even our top responding application, WinRAR, managed just a 4% performance increase when moving from 1200 C5 to 2000 C8 compared to the 20% increase when moving from 1066 to 1866 in the stock test. The increase in CPU speed outweighed any potential gains in memory bandwidth or latency improvements in our benchmarks.

Lord Sojar · Feb 05, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

RAM specs (not to mention brand ...) are essentially irrelevant for a gaming rig. There are some apps where you'll see minor speed improvements from having lower timings or more bandwidth, but the price to performance ratio is poor. Also keep in mind that even budget RAM kits generally have some overclocking headroom.

See: http://www.anandtech.com/memory/show...px?i=3589&p=10 (gaming results page; read the entire article for apps that are relevant to you)

But, bear in mind that you aren't buying high performance memory kits for the additional performance, you are buying them for the additional overclocking headroom. And.... brand is extremely relavent. Different manufacturers use different memory technologies and fabs, and choosing one with a very reliable, very overclocking friendly background is paramount. JMicron fabs are typically vastly superior in performance and operating at posted specs than say, Samsung or Hynix fabs are (Hynix are garbage btw)

On that note though, DDR3-1600 is stock supported by most P55 mobos and X58 mobos, thus there is no reason to throttle back the performance when DDR3-1600 is available for the same cost/nearly the same cost as the slower DDR3-1066/1333 offerings.

And yes, I linked ultra low latency RAM for him Burst, not higher speed RAM. Latency plays the biggest card on performance with modern IMCs. This is why I, and many others, adore the Ripjaw series from GSkill (and now their new Pi series just broadens that); they have very low latency (on 90% of them) compared to the competitors at lower prices to boot. It makes no sense to buy anything except GSkill at this point in time.

Also, unlike Corsair, GSkill's pricing allows you to get bleeding edge memory without bleeding out your bank account. GSkill is by far, the best RAM manufacturer on the planet. They have the products and the prices, making them the choice at this point.

As a glaringly obvious example...

GSkill's Offering:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231303

Corsair's Offering:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145285

Well.. that's a tough choice... Use the XMS3 with a crappy Samsung fab and less overclocking headroom for more money... OR!!! use the Ripjaws with an amazing JMicron fab, for lower heat production and more overclocking headroom for less money. Yep, clearly RAM choice makes no difference at all.

Burst Cancel · Feb 06, 2010, 01:32 AM // 01:32

You haven't actually posted anything that refutes my position.

Additional overclocking headroom is a red herring due to frequency dividers; I've never worried about being RAM-limited on X58/P55. Your claim of "vastly superior in performance and operating at posted specs" is nonsensical on its face - RAM that doesn't run at the rated spec is defective and should be RMA'd regardless of the brand. I've used RAM from all of the major OEMs in a number of builds and upgrades, and none of them have demonstrated markedly different reliability or overclocking headroom. A perusal of the Newegg ratings for different RAM kits shows that nearly all manufacturers have their fair share of issues, and the enthusiast crowds on websites like XS use RAM from a number of manufacturers - including, yes, Corsair.

Furthermore, the entire idea of "vastly superior performance" in the context of RAM is exactly what the Anandtech article calls into question. Even between RAM of vastly different specifications, the difference in real-world performance is anything but vast.

Enthusiasts - particularly those who've been drinking the marketing kool-aid for years - tend to get caught up in minute details and specs while ignoring what actually matters to most people: if I put this part in my machine, am I going to notice an actual difference? If so, how much is this difference costing me, and is it actually worth the money? In short: what kind of real-world performance am I buying?

If the GSkill costs less, that's what you buy; in fact, I specifically (and repeatedly) recommend that people not waste money on performance RAM. Your example comparison doesn't actually counter my position at all - if you wanted to do that, you'd show me a GSkill set that cost significantly more but was somehow worth the price difference. Anyone will buy GSkill when it's cheap, but that's because it's cheap, not because it's GSkill.

Jumping Is Uselss · Feb 07, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

^^ Everything Rahja and Burst just said just flew over my head

, but tyvm everyone for the input.

I've opted to buy a different case (Antec 902) from Best Buy for cheap and to just buy the 5850 since I happen to come upon a cheap 24" monitor.

Quaker · Feb 07, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Enthusiasts - particularly those who've been drinking the marketing kool-aid for years - tend to get caught up in minute details and specs while ignoring what actually matters to most people.

QFT

A person could just get
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145263
and never notice the difference in real world performance.

Lord Sojar · Feb 07, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

QFT

A person could just get
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145263
and never notice the difference in real world performance.

Well... I would notice, but that's just me I guess.

If you are going for average Joe Schmoe, then the same could be said here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227346

I mean, why not right? Joe won't notice, at all. Of course, after RMAing it 3-4x, he might kill himself, but that is totally worth the $15.99 price difference!

You are both looking at prices differences < $20 dollars and flipping out. If you can gain performance and reliability for < $20, that is completely worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

RAM that doesn't run at the rated spec is defective and should be RMA'd regardless of the brand

Incorrect. The higher speeds posted on RAM modules are indicative of the XMP/EPP profiles, and those speeds will only be achieved through overclocking or native motherboard support. If you don't have hardware to let the RAM have its full breathing room so to speak, it will never run at its fully advertised specs.

Don't think I've been sipping on the marketing koolaid Burst. Of all people, I am the least likely to do so. GSkill is, on the whole, more reliable than any other RAM manufacturer I have ever used, and most of the Corei5/i7 owners would agree. Their RAM isn't low bin crap like some other companies, so it runs at or above its posted specs. They give you a product that you pay for, not that you think you are paying for. That is why I respect them. I have yet to run into a GSkill module that was defective, underpowered, or leaky. In addition, since they are a purest company, they have little variation between their modules, seeing as how they use nearly identical fabs (much like Crucial used to do before their fall from grace) Sure, there are cheaper RAM modules for sale here and there, but personally, I wouldn't pay money from something I have a higher chance of RMAing or has a higher chance on average of being defective from gate leakage or mapping issues. I'll stick with a company that has better quality parts and maintains an honest business strategy, even if their parts are marginally higher in cost. The cost difference is worth the saved headache and time; and my time costs a lot.

And no, I won't dare try and refute that 8 billion dollar RAM is worth it. It isn't, ever. It's purely marketing mumbo jumbo. TBH, I don't see GSkill being guilty of that, ever.

As an example, this is their highest priced memory module sold on Newegg, and it just so happens to be one of absolute fastest for system tweakers.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231334

Now... if you actually look at that for a few seconds, you realize something. That breaks down to $180 for 4GBs of DDR3-2200. For a system tweaker, that's a wicked deal. Again, I would never suggest this RAM for Joe Schmoe or Little Debbie.

Let's compare to our dear friend Corsair:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145266

You would have to buy 2 kits to equal it out. And, the Corsair RAM is inferior on both speed and timings. Hmm.... this seems to be a no brainer really... Hell, 180/4GBs is actually pretty close to the upper middle range for average gaming system RAM cost. It's basically a ~$40 premium over DDR1600 offerings per 4GBs, which isn't that bad (assuming you were going to go overclocking crazy with your gaming rig)

Quaker · Feb 08, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

I mean, why not right? Joe won't notice, at all. Of course, after RMAing it 3-4x, he might kill himself, but that is totally worth the $15.99 price difference!

Geez, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!

I was referring to the difference between "performance RAM" and ordinary RAM, personally (I can't speak for Burst Cancel). The difference between DDR3-1333 and DDR3-1600 may be noticeable by some people, but it would have to be a side-by-side comparison. Most people wouldn't notice if their game took 1ms less time to load.

However, the difference between one DDR3-1600 module and the next would never be noticed by most people, even in side by side tests.
As you yourself admit, you'd have to be a "system tweaker" to ever appreciate the difference and even then it would mostly be in benchmarks. (You, yourself have also stated that the difference between dual-channel and tri-channel RAM is negligible - a similar situation.)
And - news flash - not everyone is a system tweaker. Most gamers are simply system users - just like most car drivers have no idea what's under the hood. Most people don't do massive spreadsheets or editing large HD videos or other tasks that might show a difference. Certainly, the average GW player would never notice.

Also, I wasn't comparing one brand of RAM to another. I know you are a Gskill fanboy, but there are other good brands (and I not saying which, if any, are better or worse than any other.) But, I'll bet you could install any of the RAM on this page:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...20x%20 2GB%29
and 99% of the people would not notice any difference (given stock speeds - no OC - no benchmarks). Prices, as you can see, vary - what's most economical today and/or from one supplier, may not be the most economical tomorrow and/or from another supplier.

Burst Cancel · Feb 10, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Rahja is just all over the place with his strawmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Well... I would notice, but that's just me I guess.

If you are going for average Joe Schmoe, then the same could be said here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227346

I mean, why not right? Joe won't notice, at all. Of course, after RMAing it 3-4x, he might kill himself, but that is totally worth the $15.99 price difference!

It's hardly news that products that exhibit frequent failures are generally not smart purchases. This is completely independent of performance. Try to stay on topic instead of posting links trying to prove things that everyone else already knows.

GSkill doesn't have flawless reliability either. No brand does.

Quote:

Incorrect. The higher speeds posted on RAM modules are indicative of the XMP/EPP profiles, and those speeds will only be achieved through overclocking or native motherboard support. If you don't have hardware to let the RAM have its full breathing room so to speak, it will never run at its fully advertised specs.

Another straw man. Obviously if you're using other parts (mobo, etc.) that don't support higher RAM speeds, that your problem - but that's not what I'm talking about, and you know it. Buying GSkill RAM isn't going to magically allow you to run higher speeds if the rest of your components don't support those speeds.

If the RAM, itself isn't capable of the listed spec, it's defective, period.

I'm still not seeing anything that contradicts my point: price/performance ratio for high-tier RAM is poor.

Enthusiasts have always used the "gaming rig" moniker to justify all manner of unintelligent purchases, when the only thing it ever really justified was a beefier video card. $180 for 4GB of RAM is idiocy for anyone that isn't benching, and the fact that it's made by GSkill doesn't make it any less idiotic.

Honestly, "diminishing returns" doesn't even begin to describe computer components in today's market.